Isn't this amazing?

Apparently lots of people -- believers and non-believers -- on R%26amp;S are pretty riled up about the "pagan" elements of Christmas: What would you tell a person whose faith is threatened by a shiny bauble on a tree?





What would you tell a person who assumes that all Christianity must be false because it borrows some pagan elements for parts of its tradition?





If the Santa Clauses and reindeer and jingle bells of Christmas is the most dangerous and insidious thing a believer has to face, what does that say about him and his faith?

Isn't this amazing?
It says to me that their religion is more superstitious than faithful. For the non-believers, I would say, if this is the worst thing you can say to try to disprove Christianity, then we're going pretty damn good.
Reply:peace and good will toward man
Reply:Just a wild guess..but very very very very very weak and insecure.





But on the other hand..that is ok too, as learning is part of what we all have to do while here on the earth.
Reply:I don't get why people on either side of the fence make such a big deal about it. Make Christmas what you want it to be about.





Me personally, Christmas Eve is our focus on Christ. We read Luke, we talk about Christ's birth. Sometimes the kids act it out for us. We sing religious Christmas songs.





Christmas day is all about the secular traditions for us though. We keep the two separate. But that way, we get the both of best worlds.
Reply:Well, many religions are not able to stand the test of time....This is usual....
Reply:I don't think all of Christianity is false because it borrows pagan elements for parts of its tradition.





I think all of Christianity is false because there's essentially no evidence that it isn't false. While I understand that the absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence, I believe that pink unicorns don't exist for the same reason that I think Christianity is false.
Reply:Christians tend to get defensive about it, so I have to point it out at every opportunity.





If they let go of demanding that only THEY be allowed to celebrate, or crying about secularization, I wouldn't bother.





(((Jon M)))
Reply:well, let's see here now...what can we do ...hmmm....ok, we could hang a big cross around santas neck, anoint him with oil, and put him in a chariot instead of a sleigh with angels at the front (12), replacing the reindeer...dress santa in white, (god loves to give good gifts to his children..) and, what else....naw, the tree is ok...maybe spray paint the trunk with "red paint", uh...(this aught to create a mess..think?), (i'm thinking..i'm thinking!) oh! change the "wreath" to a crown of thorns...uh....ok, i need some help here..."Peace!" :)
Reply:A person whose faith in Christ is swayed because of pagan elements being used in a supposed Christian holiday is a person whose faith has not yet matured.





We should all be aware that the date for Christmas was borrowed from the pagan winter solstice celebrations, and that many of the traditions of Christmas can also be seen in old pagan rituals. If that bothers you, then don't follow those practices. I personally know people who refuse to celebrate Christmas and Easter because neither of these holidays were celebrated in the early churches, and because of the pagan influences on the way these holidays are celebrated. That's ok with me. We're not commanded anywhere to do these things.





On the other hand, I choose to celebrate Jesus' birth and resurrection every day. I'm not going to stop celebrating His birth on December 25 because of the date on the calendar. I'm not going to stop celebrating His resurrection on Easter Sunday because of the date on the calendar. And I pick and choose what holiday traditions I will participate in. I decorate a Christmas tree and put up lights because I know that a Christmas tree would only be an idol if I made it one, and I like the looks of tastefully decorated houses and yards. When I wrap Christmas gifts I choose wrapping paper that's fairly generic or has a religious theme, and avoid the Santa Claus stuff, because I feel that Santa Claus draws too much attention away from Jesus.





Christmas is what we make of it. It's not really a religious holiday, and it's most likely not Jesus' birth date. But peace and goodwill are things that are worth celebrating, and this is one of the few times of the year that some people will come to church. When we look at the whole picture, it becomes apparent that while the Christmas holiday has little to do with Jesus' birth, it is a great witnessing tool.
Reply:if Christmas disappeared i would NOT miss any of it.
Reply:It's not just that Christianity borrowed some pagan elements for parts of its tradition. It's that the entire tradition is composed of plagiarized pagan elements. The "god-man" begotten on a virgin by a father-god in the form of an animal, who is barbarously slain on a tree and rises after three days, and whose death is commemorated by an "Eucharist" in which his devotees symbolically eat of his flesh and blood as a sacrament - all of this is pure paganism, and it forms the very kernel of the Christian tradition.





Why does it matter? Because the truth matters. I know that I, as an atheist, don't point these things out just to spoil the Christians' good time, as Fireball apparently thinks - God bless her! I was raised Christian myself. But I can't abide lies being passed off as the Truths of all time.





"Faith" is not based on reason or evidence. You don't have to know anything at all about history to have "faith." Mark Twain called it "belief in what ain't true," which is basically the same definition as Paul's "the evidence of things unseen." It's at least the acceptance of a statement as "true" without criticism, examination, verification, or any other method of test. So there's no reason why historical facts ought to disturb a person of "faith;" but it does beg the question "Why BE a person of faith?" I might add that spirituality does not depend on faith. You don't have to make yourself an intellectual imbecile to experience spiritual Truth.





PS - yo Green - thanks for the reply, and I don't necessarily disagree with your take on religion at all. In fact, I'm an advocate for the "mystical" approach to religion. Yes, Christianity is merely a rehash of pagan symbolism - but what were the pagans trying to symbolize in the first place? Because it seems to me that the main problem with religion is that people mistake the symbols for the things they're supposed to represent. Most people can understand that the cross is just a symbol of Christ - but what does Christ symbolize? I'm merely saying that to interpret the Gospels as "literal history" is to miss the point entirely. They are not at all the record of what happened to one man, but an allegory for the "mystical journey" of ALL men.





PPS - First hug ever Jon? Well, here's your second - nothing gay about it, I just like the name...lol. But I've seen your questions and you seem like a truly decent chap. ((((Jon))))
Reply:None of that stuff threatens my faith.


TO SUM IT ALL UP.............


True Christianity comes from within your heart and soul and doesn't need any representation except from you.


It all depends one how deep your faith is.
Reply:You know, the whole "festival of lights" idea is pagan. But I just love seeing how folks have lit up their houses. Some are very tasteful, Some are ethereal... some are wayyyyy over the top (those are the ones I avoid).





Honestly, people.... why the agitation? Its all about intent.





Yes, I know Christmas has pagan roots; yes, I know the virgin birth flies in the face of science... yes yes yes... I DO get it.





And still I ask, "so what?"





Yes Santa Claus is only for fun (but with historical background); reindeer, festival of lights, yule.... yes, I get that its pagan.





So what?





None of this makes it any less than what it has been to me for all my life: the celebration of Christ's coming to earth.





peace respects regards








Edit: hmmmm..... I never considered myself as being an idiot because I'm Christian. Maybe for other reasons..... I think you're only seeing the paradigm, JonJon. God is infinitely more than the paradigm. This is why, as humans, I believe we've gotten it (religion) certainly skewed and incomplete, or, more likely, completely wrong. Religion can not come close in any way whatsoever to describing or understanding God. Its like trying to stuff all of the world's air into a shoebox!





I choose to believe because the universe is infinite, which indeed does leave room for God.





Edit #2 -- thanks, JonJon... point well taken.
Reply:Well said. Some Christians, though, are aware of their northern European ancestry and celebrate the pagan elements as a way of connecting with their ancestors, but they don't make that more important than celebrating the arrival of Christ. They can see the meaning in all of it.
Reply:I agree completely - couldn't have said it better.





Of course Christmas adapted some pagan traditions (what exactly does chopping a tree down, dragging it inside and hanging shiny things off of it, nailing socks to the fireplace, et cetera have to do with Christ?).





And of course the celebration of other traditions shouldn't detract from whatever you feel Christmas is about, provided that we have any faith or conviction at all (as you've said, how weak and paranoid does one's faith have to be to be threatened by Santa Claus?).





Well said.
Reply:theres nothing wrong with believing in santa if your 10 or something like that i believed in santa and i still beilieved in god plus its easier to beleive in santa when your little if your dad dresses like him. like my dad does. it gives little childern hope that being good will pay off ya.and that some one cares and knows all there good deeds god may exists for a child but it's harder to belive in because they can't see or touch him but santa they can so i don't discredit santa clause
Reply:I would say its another molehill being made into a mountain by people who have too much idle time on their hands and not much wisdom.
Reply:Hey man I can't even remember my parents mentioning Satan clause. Besides I can only think what a child could possibly be thinking today, oh santa gave it mom and dad aint sh**. I say don't lie to your children because simply put for a child these days as sorry as it is to say Christmas is no more than their individual birthdays without the santa (satan) garbage.
Reply:Hey Jon you have a pic..looks good


I say ignore the people that are trying to rattle your cage..they can have any opinion they want.


Personally Christmas is all about the birth of Christ and the celebration it should have every year, no doubt.


I'm Latina so you can add to the mix Jan 3rd which is a gift giving day for us, as that is the day the 3 wise men brought gifts to the baby Jesus.


Christmas Eve is about midnight Mass and Christmas day is about family %26amp; opening gifts.


Feliz Navidad
Reply:christmas origionated from the pagan celebations that was taken over by the christian faith to celebrate the birth of christ hench the name. jesus was born in spring time. The christian faith decided that christmas would b better celebrated in december to brighten up the dark months
Reply:No, only that Christians seem to think their is "THEIR" Holiday and they want to bann anything fun from it like Santa Clause, for EVERYONE.





Not to mention... why does it matter? Because they are celebrating Christs birthday on a Pagan, even though their god wasn't born in December, to convert the heathens, and want the rest of us to be ok with that.





It matters because the Christians make it matter and want to be favored so that all the other religions are ignored. Just like they do with everything else. They use their Chrsitianity to try to get special treatment.





Pointing out that its actually a Pagan holiday is an attempt to get them to realize that they aren't "special", and that they're just like all the other religions out there.





*sighs* We "Nonbelievers" (very rude, that word. Stop calling us that), want them to realize that they have to be treated equally with everyone else, whether they want to be or not.
Reply:Faith in Christ will make it all right.
Reply:Its just an excuse to bother us.. ITS ALL ABOUT GOD NOW for 2000 years...noone in real life ever says this stuff..